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    • CommentRowNumber1.
    • CommentAuthorMike Shulman
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2015

    Inspired by a discussion with Martin Escardo, I created taboo.

    • CommentRowNumber2.
    • CommentAuthormartinescardo
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2021
    I don't think I agree with this anymore (if I ever agreed with it):

    "A taboo, for a particular flavor of mathematics or formal system, is a simple statement that is known to be not provable therein, and that can therefore be used to establish the unprovability of other statements without the need to descend into metamathematical considerations (such as syntactic analysis or construction of countermodels) or, in some cases, even to decide on a particular formal system to be working in."

    Why do we need taboos in, say, Bishop mathematics? Because it is not precisely defined and there is no formal system for it. There is no way, therefore, to establish unprovability in Bishop mathematics. Or in Brouwerian intuitionistic mathematics.

    I do agree, however, that e.g. in topos logic "taboos" are a way to avoid new counter-models for conjectures based on existing counter-models for "taboos". But this is a circular definition.

    Somehow, the founders of intuitionistic/constructive mathematics, including Brouwer and Bishop, felt that there were some things outside the realm of intuitionistic/constructive mathematics that are taboos independently of possible formalizations of intuitionistic/constructive mathematics.

    Nowadays I see these taboos as conventions, (partially ) specifying a field of mathematics. Like excluded middle and choice *define* classical mathematics, the constructive taboos define constructive mathematics.

    This may seem strange to someone coming to constructive mathematics from (classical|) topos theory, where intuitionistic reasoning is forced upon us, and the so-called taboos may or may not hold.

    In any case, another important omission is that Peter Aczel proposed the word "taboo". I guess for the reasons I said above, but one would have to ask him.But the taboos, with another name, go back to Brouwer, and are called "Brouwerian counter-examples".
    • CommentRowNumber3.
    • CommentAuthorMike Shulman
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2021

    Well, I suppose if you redefine “taboo” to mean “Brouwerian counter-example”, then that changes its meaning. But I would prefer to keep the two separate.

    • CommentRowNumber4.
    • CommentAuthormartinescardo
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2021
    What I am saying is that I don't think that the definition of taboo in this entry is faithful to its original intention.
    • CommentRowNumber5.
    • CommentAuthorMike Shulman
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2021

    Is there anywhere in writing where Aczel said what he intended it to mean? Or anyone who’s in a position to ask him?

    • CommentRowNumber6.
    • CommentAuthorUrs
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2021

    I have added references (here) where Peter Aczel indicates the intended meaning of the terminology.

    diff, v2, current

    • CommentRowNumber7.
    • CommentAuthorDavid_Corfield
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2021

    Under the homotopical taboos can we include Whitehead theorem?

    Mike said once:

    we shouldn’t expect to prove in homotopy type theory that every weak equivalence, in this sense, is an actual equivalence. In other words, “Whitehead’s theorem” should not be provable.

    • CommentRowNumber8.
    • CommentAuthorUrs
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2021

    For what it’s worth, I find that the Aczel quote that I had dug out here vindicates exactly this kind of suggestion (#7) and the attitude of the entry in general.

    My feeling is that the complaint in #2 is about the would-be claim that the unprovability of taboos is itself provable, which the entry doesn’t actually claim, or doesn’t mean to claim (maybe the wording can be enhanced to clarify this). But, of course, what do I know.

    • CommentRowNumber9.
    • CommentAuthorRichard Williamson
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2021
    • (edited Dec 16th 2021)

    Perhaps along the same lines as Urs, I wonder if the word ’known’ in the first sentence could be improved upon.

    Otherwise I think this page is worth having; whether one uses the word ’taboo’ or something else is not something I have an opinion on!

    • CommentRowNumber10.
    • CommentAuthorMike Shulman
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2021

    Thanks Urs! It looks like Aczel did intend to include Brouwerian counterexamples. So as Urs and Richard said, we should definitely modify the paragraph not to claim that a taboo is known to be unprovable. What about something like

    A taboo, for a particular flavor of mathematics or formal system, is a simple statement that is known, or intended, to be not provable therein. Therefore, if some other statement can be shown to imply the taboo, it follows that that statement also is not, or should not be, provable. When discussing a formal system, a taboo can be used to establish the unprovability of other statements without the need to descend into metamathematical considerations (such as syntactic analysis or construction of countermodels) — although of course metamathematics had to be used to establish the unprovability of the taboo itself. When discussing an imprecisely specified flavor of mathematics, a taboo can be used to decide on statements that are “off-limits” without descending into philosophy, although similarly the philosophy was invoked to argue for the inadmissibility of the taboo in the first place.

    (Or we could have separate paragraphs about taboos in formal systems and taboos in informal flavors of mathematics.)

    • CommentRowNumber11.
    • CommentAuthorMike Shulman
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2021

    Whitehead’s principle is what I call a “constructive-homotopical taboo”. It’s not a pure taboo for homotopy theory, since it holds in the classical model; nor is it a pure taboo for constructive mathematics, since it presumably holds in any model defined out of sets, even constructively. But it is a taboo if we want to include arbitrary \infty-topos models that are both constructive and homotopical.

    • CommentRowNumber12.
    • CommentAuthorDavid_Corfield
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2021

    I’ve added in Whitehead’s principle.

    diff, v4, current

    • CommentRowNumber13.
    • CommentAuthorNikolajK
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2021
    • (edited Dec 20th 2021)

    I think of this as an informal terminology which is also not restricted to constructive mathematics. If you set up your classical logic with negation, you may write False (the constant \bot) for, say, “there exists an x with x unequal x”. Then to prove any proposition P to be false (i.e. to prove not P) is to prove

    P -> False

    We might phrase this as saying that P is “classically false”, we could also say P is “False-implying”.

    People, under the implicit assumption that False is not provable in our system, casually say “P is unprovable” (e.g. 3^2=10 is supposedly unprovable in Peano arithmetic, because we assume False is unprovable). So for most theories in general, False is a taboo quite as described in the sense of the article. If the article wants to use the word taboo for formalized systems, it should probably not say “known”, since to e.g. “False is known to be unprovable” is a strong consistency claim. The claim that some formal theory (with explosion, constructive or not) is known not to prove certain statements (say whether constructive arithmetic proves all LEM instances or its other taboos) formally depends on whether we want to go as far and claim the theory is certainly consistent.

    Now we can play this game with any proposition Q. We have a notion of being “Q-implying” or “Q-false.” And then “Constructively false” means Q-implying where Q is a theorem as listed in the article (omniscience principle, etc.). But again, I think we can use this language for all theories.

  1. mention Brouwerian counterexamples

    Naïm Favier

    diff, v5, current

  2. Added section on predicative taboos

    Anonymous

    diff, v6, current

  3. also added axiom K to homotopical taboos

    Anonymous

    diff, v6, current

  4. added boundary separation to homotopical taboos

    Anonymous

    diff, v7, current

  5. added fan theorem to constructive taboos

    Anonymous

    diff, v7, current

  6. adding supports split to constructive taboos section

    Anonymous

    diff, v8, current

  7. added type of all propositions to predicative taboos section

    Anonymous

    diff, v9, current

  8. added choice operator to constructive taboos

    Anonymous

    diff, v9, current

  9. added a section on strongly predicative taboos which cannot be added or proved in strongly predicative mathematics

    Anonymous

    diff, v10, current

  10. added section on taboos in discrete cohesive homotopy type theory (i.e. the setting for plain homotopy type theory)

    Anonymous

    diff, v10, current

  11. added presentation axiom and dependent choice to constructive taboos

    Anonymous

    diff, v10, current

  12. added impredicative polymorphism to weakly predicative constructive taboos section

    Anonymouse

    diff, v15, current