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    • CommentRowNumber1.
    • CommentAuthorPeter Heinig
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2017
    • (edited Jul 28th 2017)

    Created General Theory of Natural Equivalences, partly on the model of the (to me) useful-seeming Elephant. One reason was that I think it can be instructive for people learning more category theory to see this classic transparently commented on in a modern reference work like the nLab.

    Another reason was that this is a historical important paper, which I needed an nLab reference for when writing a historical, context-adding section of directed graph, embedding Lawvere’s interesting Como comments into a relevant context, drawing historical parallels.

    • CommentRowNumber2.
    • CommentAuthorUrs
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2017

    Peter, what is an email address by which you may be reached?

    • CommentRowNumber3.
    • CommentAuthorPeter Heinig
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2017

    Urs, my last name at ma.tum.de

    • CommentRowNumber4.
    • CommentAuthortomers99
    • CommentTimeSep 1st 2018
    Hey. I wanted to ask what's wrong, in the modern view, with the theorem that appears in the appendix of that paper - that is, the claim that any category is isomorphic to a subcategory of Set.

    The n-lab article ends with the following obscure lines:

    "The paper ends with an appendix making a sweeping representability theorem about (in the author’s words) “any category” that to compare with the concept of concreteness can be instructive."

    which doesn't make things clearer.
    • CommentRowNumber5.
    • CommentAuthorMike Shulman
    • CommentTimeSep 1st 2018

    It only applies to small categories, since otherwise the definition “R(A)=R(A) = the set of all morphisms with codomain AA” need not be a (small) set.

    • CommentRowNumber6.
    • CommentAuthortomers99
    • CommentTimeSep 1st 2018
    • (edited Sep 1st 2018)
    Isn't the distinction between "sets" and "classes" (or, equally, between "small" and "large" categories) at least somewhat controversial?

    In other words, is the distinction between small and large categories a mathematical or a philosophical one? If someone holds a Platonist Cantorian view toward set theory, does it make sense to for him to view the claim that any category is isomorphic to a category of sets as correct?
    • CommentRowNumber7.
    • CommentAuthorMike Shulman
    • CommentTimeSep 1st 2018

    No, I don’t think it is at all controversial, and it is inarguably mathematical. There are many ways to formalize the distinction between “small” and “large” (I wrote this note about a bunch of them), but it’s hard to dispute that some such distinction is necessary. In particular, the category of all (small) sets cannot be a small category, on pain of Russellian paradoxes.

    • CommentRowNumber8.
    • CommentAuthortomers99
    • CommentTimeSep 1st 2018
    I've briefly went trough your pdf, and I think it's commendable you wrote such an detailed summery of the issue. You haven't, however, wrote much about what should be the Platonist attitude toward those questions.

    My own perception of the world of sets is very close to Cantor’s one. I think that the so called “paradoxes” that arise from naive Cantorian set theory are perhaps not dissimilar to the “paradoxes” that arose in the infinitesimal Calculus from Newton& Leibniz time until the modern definition of a limit appeared in the work of people like Weierstrass. Those so called “paradoxes” that people like George Berkeley mentioned were very real contradictions, and for all their genius, people like Newton, Leibniz, and even their processors like Lagrange and Euler, couldn’t resolve them. Mathematics just had to mature, and only at the time of people like Weierstrass it has matured enough for non contradictory definitions to replace the old ones. Yet, it would have been quite pity if we listened to Berkeley’s valid criticism and abounded Calculus at it’s infancy, wasn’t it?

    Calculus worked, and people felt it’s more important to develop it than concerning themselves with logical casuistry. My feeling about sets is similar – sets work. We treat tons of objects – some of them very large like the categories Set, Grp, or Cat – as “naive” sets in the sense of “a collection of things regarded as a thing by its own” all the time. It works. Yes, when we are pushed to the corner we use technical formalities like Grothednick universes and the rest of the things you discussed, but those solutions seem ad hoc solution and artificial. And at least in what I've experienced, they are rarely used in the actual mathematics in any practical way (outside of questions that has clear set theoretical character). So it seems reasonable to me to accept sets in their “naive”, Cantorian sense and speculate that perhaps our mathematics just isn’t mature enough to consistently treat them nowadays. However, just like that didn’t justified not using methods from Calculus on objects upon which those methods couldn't be consistently defined at the time, and just like it changed for Calculus, it may well change for set theory in the future as our mathematics evolve.

    I understand that my own position might be in a serious minority. But I want to ask what, in your opinion, is the attitude toward small vs. large categories that should follow from my position toward sets.
    • CommentRowNumber9.
    • CommentAuthorRichard Williamson
    • CommentTimeSep 1st 2018
    • (edited Sep 1st 2018)

    Hi, I find your point of view interesting! Thanks for elaborating on it and for asking your question here!

    I think if it were purely a matter of Russellian paradoxes, then I would be very sympathetic to your point of view. But there are situations in category theory where size seems fundamental. One example might be the fact that any category with all colimits (not only small ones) is a poset. Perhaps this theorem is also artificial in some sense, but it would be interesting to explore in what way it is so.

    • CommentRowNumber10.
    • CommentAuthorDavidRoberts
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2018
    • (edited Sep 2nd 2018)

    Note that from a structural point of view, even the material classes of ZFC are extremely well-behaved. You can do almost everything with them that you would do with sets, as they form a well-pointed, Boolean infinitary pretopos with subobject classifier. All one lacks for this to act the same as the category of sets is Cartesian closedness and a strong version of Choice (surjective class functions have sections). I view this as at least a partial validation of any Platonist view about any manipulations of classes as required by mathematics. Mike knows, I suspect, a more precise alignment of this informal view with the conservativity of NBG over ZFC, and the relation of all this to Algebraic Set Theory.

    Once has the category C of classes (that is, something obeying the first-order category axioms), large categories, in the sense the total collection of morphisms is a class, become internal categories in C, hence essentially algebraic objects.

    • CommentRowNumber11.
    • CommentAuthorUrs
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2018

    What seems missing, though, is an expositon of these facts which would make them accessible for the masses.

    • CommentRowNumber12.
    • CommentAuthorTodd_Trimble
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2018

    outside of questions that has clear set theoretical character

    It must be admitted that such questions cut a huge swath. Category theory is permeated by smallness considerations, as is obvious from the adjoint functor theorem, Giraud’s characterization of Grothendieck toposes, the theory of accessible and locally presentable categories, the small object argument – the list goes on and on.

    This is not to say the final word has been uttered on the small-large division – all sorts of ideas should be entertained. I am disinclined to believe however that it’s really a question of “maturity”: limitations of one kind or another are simply baked into mathematical reality.

    • CommentRowNumber13.
    • CommentAuthorDavidRoberts
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2018

    @Urs, do you mean #10? If so, I agree. It’s hard to educate people :-) My only remaining internal quibble is how to properly say ’classes form a category’ in a way that will minimise people arguing about how one should think about collecting all classes into a single collection. The moment you say ’model of a first-order theory’, people tend to think a model is a set. Maybe it’s down to ZFC classes being somewhat syntactic.

    • CommentRowNumber14.
    • CommentAuthorTodd_Trimble
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2018

    Yeah, if pressed I’d personally go with the option of dealing with syntactic objects in a meta-theory (which we can treat or pretend to treat “Platonistically”, i.e., taking infinite collections of syntactic strings and their manipulations as God-given). We’ve made little starts here and there already I think, especially when we were discussing Scott’s trick not too long ago.

    • CommentRowNumber15.
    • CommentAuthorDavidRoberts
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2018
    • (edited Sep 3rd 2018)

    I’d also drop this paper here as an interesting approach:

    Paul Blain Levy, Formulating Categorical Concepts using Classes, arXiv:1801.08528

    • CommentRowNumber16.
    • CommentAuthortomers99
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2018
    • (edited Sep 5th 2018)
    Let me ask a slightly different question. It's clear the founders of category theory, i.e Eilenberg and Mac Lane, initially regarded any category as equivalent to a category of sets, as this claim appears in their seminal paper. If their opinions changed later, when was it, and what caused the change?

    What's your opinion on Mac Lane philosophical standpoint that appears in "a sketch for the philosophy of mathematics"? (http://home.deib.polimi.it/schiaffo/TFIS/philofmaths.pdf)

    In particular, Mac Lane rejection of what he calls the "Grand set theoretic foundation doctrine"?

    ----

    Richard, thank you (and all the other people) for answering my question here. A little remark regarding the "Neo Cantorian" point of view: few years ago, back than as a teenager interested in mathematicians, I had the opportunity to visit Menachem Magidor (a distinguished Israeli set theorist and logican) at the Hebrew university [he heard I was interested about the foundations of mathematics and was kind enough to invite me and patiently explain many things). I told him about my conception of sets that I described above, and wondered why can't we just do away with axiomatic systems like ZFC and study sets directly in the "naive" stetting.

    When I asked Magidor whether he thinks it’s a reasonable position, he replied that he does, but he also pointed out that there’s an important difference between the foundational problems Calculus had and the current problem of foundation for set theory. For Calculus, he said, the problem was mostly theoretical. While they didn’t had a solid basis for it, Newton and Leibniz knew how to develop it, because the disagreement were not about which theorems of Calculus are true. They could tell right from wrong. Thus Calculus was free to evolve, and the theoretical foundations could come when time was right. For set theory, however, different foundations lead to essentially different set theoretical worlds; A world of sets where, say, the Continuum Hypothesis is true is radically different from one in which it isn’t. So The question of foundations has actual, significant influence on our picture of the world of sets. And while a Platonist may not regard theories like ZFC as “the basis” of the world of sets (just like Peano axioms aren’t “the basis” of number theory), he can’t do away with them, because it isn’t obvious to him what his platonic world of sets looks like. So in practice, Platonist set theorists must use axiomatic systems to study their world as well, and their philosophical position on the matter doesn’t change much.

    So I finally accepted the usefulness of systems like ZFC, not without regret.
    • CommentRowNumber17.
    • CommentAuthorMike Shulman
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2018

    Apologies for not responding to #8 sooner; I’ve been busy with the semester starting, and it’s been a bit tricky to figure out what I want to say.

    I definitely still agree, as I wrote in that note and as Richard said in #9, that there are situations in modern category theory where size feels fundamental. Some of them are much more naturally-occurrring too, for instance the requirement of accessibility on functors and categories for free algebras to exist.

    However, I have for some time now also entertained privately the belief that there should also be some kind of “unlimited category theory” (a phrase coined by Feferman) that is “free of size”. If such a theory existed, it would necessarily appear bizarre in some ways to a modern category theorist, since it would have to avoid the paradoxes of size somehow. (In particular, Feferman’s desiderata for such a theory appear to be contradictory, although there’s a bit of wiggle room for debate since he formulated them imprecisely.) But in other ways, it could feel like a dream come true. (No more checking of solution-set conditions and accessibility? Sign me up!) In particular, I share your intuition that SetSet “really” means the category of all sets, and CatCat the category of all categories, including itself — as long as you don’t do anything stupid with it. If nothing else, it would be interesting to explore such a theory if it existed, even if it ended up being too weird to supplant ordinary size-based category theory for most applications.

    In fact there is no shortage of fully rigorous proposals for “size-free” foundations of mathematics, including stratified set theories like NF, “positive” set theories, and also set theories based on linear logic and paraconsistent logic. I don’t find any of them really satisfactory, but that could be because no one has taken the time to seriously work out what category theory would look like therein. It would be a worthy project! (I actually also have my own idea for how to obtain such a theory, but I’m not ready to talk about it publically as many details remain to be worked out.)

    Perhaps the best answer to the question you asked of “what should my attitude be” is that I think a better analogy to the history of calculus is to consider the current situation, with size distinctions formalized using proper classes or Grothendieck universes, as corresponding to the ε\epsilon-δ\delta formalism. Both are a successful way to give a fully rigorous grounding to a subject, yet nevertheless still fail at capturing something of the original intuition. The still-hypothetical unlimited category theory would then correspond instead to the rigorous infinitesimals of Robinson’s Nonstandard Analysis or of Synthetic Differential Geometry, which don’t behave exactly like the unrigorous ones of the early pioneers, but are arguably closer to what they had in mind than εδ\forall \epsilon\exists \delta.

    • CommentRowNumber18.
    • CommentAuthorMike Shulman
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2018

    If I am reading MacLane right, he calls the Grand Set Theoretic Doctrine

    Mathematics is what can be done within axiomatic set theory using classical predicate logic.

    I think this is unjustifiable as a “definition” of mathematics, if possible even more so today than it was when MacLane wrote it. However, that doesn’t entail a total rejection of “foundational theories”. As I’ve written elsewhere, the distinguishing feature of set theory is not that all of mathematics is done inside of set theory, but that all (or at least much) of mathematics could be “coded up” inside of set theory. This is analogous to how a Turing-complete programming language can simulate any other language, or an NP-complete problem can have any other NP problem reduced to it; so a more neutral term than “foundational” would be something like “mathematics-complete”. There’s a lot of value in studying such theories and the ways in which they can represent all of mathematics, as long as we don’t put the cart before the horse and start identifying mathematics with its encoding into such a theory.

    • CommentRowNumber19.
    • CommentAuthorDmitri Pavlov
    • CommentTimeApr 6th 2023

    Added:

    Transactions of the American Mathematical Society 58 (1945), 231–294. doi:10.1090/S0002-9947-1945-0013131-6.

    The first page says

    Presented to the Society, September 8, 1942; received by the editors May 15, 1945.

    diff, v2, current

    • CommentRowNumber20.
    • CommentAuthorUrs
    • CommentTimeApr 6th 2023

    completed the bib-item, added link to jstor:1990284 and cross-linked with category and category theory (where the item appeared unlinked to this page here)

    diff, v3, current